Did you miss the casual gaming note? This is aimed towards casual games like puzzles, tetris and the like and not hardcore games.

And if you still don't know it the casual gaming market have a way bigger audience than the hardcore market. Everyone plays "basic flash types games", from young children to old grandmas, but not everyone plays hardcore games.

Aemony you do know XNA already allows you to port very simple XBLA games between the 360 marketplace and Zune.

We've seen how much of an overwhelming success that has been.

Couple of factors for things going against Zune Tony.
1) Although you can side load games onto the Zune using XNA, there is still no distribution market for Zune games. All games so far released have high quality affairs from respectable studios also tightly controlled.
2) More importantly ZuneHD(which I own and love) has not been a commercial success so there has not been any clamoring for additional software on it. Most ZuneHD guys actually love the Zune pass and buy the device for that. They do no really care for game apps.

That's like saying, "Tony Montana has the ability to not be completely negative and obviously biased but we've seen how much of an overwhelming success that has been."

What are you talking about? Are you saying a service that doesn't exist is a failure? Sure devs can develop Zune games but there's no distribution channel for the devs to get their games into the hands of consumers. When MS rolls out Xbox Live across platforms then you can judge how much of a failure it is.

@Arnie

I think what the Zune had going against it was the fact that it was just establishing a userbase while the main competitor had a huge userbase that was still growing.

If you make a game the bigger the userbase is the more copies you sell and the lower you can price each individual game. The games would have to be priced a lot higher on the Zune and thats why it never took off.

It's going to be the same situation here.

nikescar let me put it to you so you understand.

OK you want to use this cross platform service for your xbox 360 and PC and cellphone.

What do you need? A gaming capable PC, an xbox 360 and a Windows 7 Mobile. Three copies of Modern Warfare 2 and Xbox Live.

Now think about how many people will own a Gaming PC, an xbox 360 AND a Windows 7 mobile. Now think about how many people will own three copies of the same game.. see the problem here?!


If you can download a game for $5 from a Zune store and just play it while you are killing time at the bus stop then thats fine. On the other hand having to buy there seperate copies of a game is a bit ridiculous unless of course you buy Modern Warfare 2 for the PC and you get a 360 copy and mobile copy for free.

Fact of the matter is this whole convergence idea doesn't make very much sense but the worst thing is you are playing with three different control schemes. How do you propose you play Team Fortress 2 with a touch screen? Now you have the additional cost of tailoring a game for three different platforms. This is just a giant mess and due to its complexity and expense it simply won't work.

To make matters worse the whole "selling Windows Mobile as a casual gaming device" is bs. There are over 100 million Nintendo DS' out there and I seriously doubt people will be running to Windows Mobile and paying a hefty premium for a powerful smartphone capable of running complex games. Fact of the matter is the casual gaming sector is dominated by Nintendo and the Wii often outsells the 360 2:1 and 3:1.

On your first point, who ever said you need to own all these device to enjoy playing a game? No one did (besides you). I don't see the problem here. If people have a Windows 7 PC and a Xbox they can use the game save syncing. Have only a Windows Mobile phone? Then play the game just as you would on an iPhone. These are extra bonuses and can be major selling points for gamers that already use Xbox Live.

Secondly, all those cost ideas are pure conjecture. You have no idea how pricing across platforms will work. Chances are MS hasn't even figured this out yet. Stop making assumptions.

Cost of tailoring a game for three different platforms? Did you not grasp what the story was saying? Have you ever used XNA to make a game? I know from using XNA that adding support for another platform is a very easy task. In some case it can be done in as little as a dozen lines. Bottom line is XNA makes developing across platforms almost automatic. Check into it if you don't believe me. Besides, game companies are already doing this but instead of having 90% (or more in my experience) of the code be used across platforms they have total rewrites with all original engines and art and models, etc. That's a very expensive proposition. XNA cuts these costs to almost nothing.

On your last point, Windows Mobile will only be an extension of Xbox Live. It will compliment an existing service. But let's say for the sake of argument that it was being touted as a stand alone platform. Look at the iPhone. There's obviously room in the market for devices like these. All the Nintendo statistics in the world can't show that to be false (no matter how off-topic they are).

Obviously a game like Halo 3 (or TF2) wouldn't move into the mobile space very well. You are the only one crazy enough to even think they would try something like that. Look at the game they showed. These are casual XBLA and iPhone-esque games. But even then there can still be convergence between the full blown $60 retail game and the casual mobile/XBLA game.

@nikescar

Addressing your replies:

1: The point is if I own Modern Warfare 2 for the PC will Microsoft give me a 360 version for free or will I have to pay extra for it? If I don't own both copies I can't sync between them.

As for the game being multiplatform the biggest issue again is the control scheme. If you design a game for the gamepad it doesn't translate well the PC sometimes. A good example of this is Devil May Cry 4. How do you design a game for 16 or so buttons on a console and then re-design it for a touchscreen? Not to mention maintaining code amongst more than one platform is not as easy or simple as having just one platform and one control scheme.

2: Of course nobody knows the price but like I said for the 1:1 game syncing you would have to own both copies and unless they give you one copy for free you are going to have to pay double for it. Do you think Microsoft will give you the 360 version of Modern Warfare 2 for free if you buy the PC version? I don't think so but I guess we shall have to see. I'd be surprised if they did though that system would be open to abuse.

3: Porting to multiple platforms would require extra manual work just for sorting out the control scheme etc and that would cost money as they would have to likely redesign aspects of the game. I suppose it depends a lot on the game at hand but a game that takes advantage of the dozens of buttons on a joypad is not going to be easy to put onto a touchscreen.

4: The iPhone didn't prove anything all the iPhone did was sell very well and a percentage of iPhone owners bought games. If the iPhone hadn't sold so well the amount of games selling on it would have been smaller.

Also you have to keep in mind you are making it look like Microsoft are all conquering in the console space but at this rate with the way things are going in a year Microsoft will be last in the console race and they are still billions in the red in regards to the Xbox division. You are making it sound as if Microsoft are at the top of that hill but their on the way to the bottom of it. Of course anything can happen but with Japanese sales included worldwide the PS3 is selling better worldwide and the Wii is miles ahead.

5: Well I'm not sure what 360 or PC games they are planning to port. I noticed XBLA was mentioned. It makes me think of Street Fighter 2 Turbo and the like but then again how would you play Street Fighter 2 Turbo on a touchscreen? That port probably wouldn't work or at least it'd be more difficult in all likelihood IMO.

This is why I think ports are a useless idea trying to get a game working that requires a bunch of buttons is not going to be easy but designing a game from the ground up for a touch screen wouldn't give you that issue. I'm curious what Xbox/XBLA game you think would work perfectly with both the 360 controller, keyboard and touchscreen.

1 and 2:I don't know how it will work and neither do you. There are any number of ways to address this issue. On idea (just for shits and giggles) would be to have a package price. Let's say a XBLA game costs $5 to download on to one platform. Maybe it would cost $7.50 to have on PC, X360 and phone. You would have the option to buy the package or not. Just one way they could do it.

Since all this would be tied to your XBL gamertag there wouldn't be an abuse issue.

As for the control issue, that's where developers make the call. Does it make sense to port every game over to a mobile phone or handheld? I don't think so but most developers disagree. On iPhone and DS you have Call of Duty games, iPhone is getting a port of Street Fighter IV, etc. I don't know why you keep bringing up games that don't make sense. Obviously the games that won't work won't get ported. You're arguing with your own ideas.

Keep in mind that games that go across platforms aren't going to be the AAA $60 games on X360. We're talking XBLA here.

3: I already told you how easy XNA makes this process. Devs already make game multiplatform from phones to handlhelds to full blown consoles. XNA would save them time/money.

See the above for your control issues.

4: So then you agree that iPhone gaming is big business then. I'm glad we agree on something.

Windows Mobile in it's current horrid state already has a huge userbase. What makes you think a user friendly (we'll see when it's released), total rewrite of Windows Mobile wouldn't be at least as successful?

I have never made any statements regarding the 360's success or failure. I never compared it to any other console. Again, you are having this argument with yourself.

I will say that Xbox Live has at least 12 million users of which I think all of them would be appreciative to have that experience on multiple devices. That's not say those 12 million will buy a WP7S phone just that the XBL integration will get their attention.

5: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/04/new-street-fighter-iv-iphone-media-arrives-on-us-shores/

I think a the vast majority of XBLA games would be able to work on a touchscreen. I would've never said this two years ago but look at what the iPhone devs are coming up with. Do I prefer having a full joypad to play with? Of course. But if I could take an experience with me I'd live with a less than perfect control scheme.

From my other post on this story:
"Also we might finally see useful mini-games on our phones that add to the experience of full blown games. For instance, Fable 3 releases on Xbox 360 and a XBLA/WP7S game is released that let's you work and trade goods. Everything syncs automatically and you can have you favorite game with you at all times."

That's what excites me most. Being able to contribute to a full blown RPG through playing mini games on my phone and it would sync automatically to my XBL gamertag save.

I just hope MS gets it's shit together and finally does the convergence they've been talking about for years. I'm sick of waiting.

I really doubt they'd sell one copy for $5 and three for $7:50. Even with a miniscule amount of porting work it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Plus the thing is if the games are linked to your account doesn't that mean you would need an Xbox Live Gold Account to play them on the 360? Microsoft could do away with the Silver and Gold and give you an account where you can play for free on Live but I don't see that happening.

Also about Call of Duty on the iPhone. That is a completely different version as I am sure you are well aware of. I doubt you could use the save games from a mobile Call of Duty and then use them on a PC or console version. I don't think there is much cross over on this market at all the thing is if your on a handheld device you play a different type of game. With a home cinema and a plasma at your disposal its a different ballpark. I don't see where the big cross over would be.

The reason I bring up big games is because thats what people generally play on consoles and the PC. The type of simple games that people play to kill time on their cell phones are available on the PC too. Their called flash games and there are quite a few of them on Facebook.

You are correct Windows Mobile in its various iterations since 2000 has built up a big userbase but you seem to be forgetting there is no backwards compatability which means Windows Mobile 7 will be starting from the ground up.

If Windows Mobile 7 cellphones start selling as well as the iPhone the iPhone still has a huge installed userbase. Would you develop for the OS selling a million a day or the OS selling a million a day with a installed userbase of tens of millions?

And the reason I mentioned the 360's failures and successes is because I am trying to make the point that as far as gaming devices go out of all the gaming devices on the market at the moment the 360's marketshare is smaller than the DS and Wii's and the PS3 is catching up. I think its significant because if the 360 is going to feed gaming on Windows Mobile having more users would be very beneficial.

I think the fact that they are relying so much on 10 or 12 million XB users is not a very good thing. You have to remember just because somebody subscribes to Xbox Live doesn't mean they also download the arcade games. These are figures from last year but they give an idea of what some of the best selling games on XBLA do:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24773

Thats in the hundreds of thousands so not bad but now you have to consider that out of those hundreds of thousands buying those games even less would own a Windows 7 Mobile device and out of that smaller percentage even fewer are likely to buy the game twice. Then you have to work out the amount of games that would actually make sense on a handheld(Battlefield 1943 is one of the most popular XBLA games but obviously wouldn't work on a handheld).

Suddenly out of all those dozens of XBLA games you have to subtract the amount of people that would own both platforms(lets just say for arguments sake 80% would own a 360 and a Windows Mobile device). Now you also have to subtract people who will buy another copy of the game even at discount price(again I am going to be generous and say 80%) and then subtract the games that wouldn't work on a touchscreen(I'm going to go with around 50%)

Now you have a much much smaller market for these games.

BTW you linked Street Fighter IV for the iPhone but you have to keep in mind that is not the same as Street Fighter IV on the 360 and there is no correlation. In other words no saves or anything like that, the two are completely different.

See the thing is the console version of Street Fighter IV can't be played on the iPhone and the iPhone version of Street Fithter IV isn't desirable on consoles as you can have a much better version of it running on the console so the two have no correlation at all.

The whole minigame on mobile devices has already been done with link up play between the Wii and the DS and the saving games in the cloud is done by steam(though only on the PC obviously).