Filed under: OS Updates, Windows, Microsoft, Beta, Windows x64
XP Mode in Windows 7 is no cop out
by Lee Mathews May 3rd 2009 at 1:00PM
I've been waiting to get my hands on the Windows Virtual XP beta for Windows 7 ever since reading about it on Within Windows. If you're not familiar with it, XP Mode is built on Virtual PC and the Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP), and is designed as a way to avoid application incompatibilities like those that plagued Vista.
I've read some interesting complaints about it. Things like "XP Mode is simply a way for Microsoft to trick IT administrators into thinking that upgrading to Windows 7 is a better idea than moving to OS-independent cloud services." Or "It's an admission that Windows XP was just fine and didn't need to be replaced."
Nothing could be further from the truth. Rather, it's an acknowledgment by Microsoft that, even on a new OS, old applications must work flawlessly. It also has tremendous cost-saving potential for small and medium businesses. Businesses much like the one where I work.
At my day job, we (like nearly all of our customers) run point of sale software that has a Windows-only client. Windows XP has run just fine, but we're now getting to the point where it will be time for some hardware upgrades. We only change hardware once every five or six years, so I'd like to install mid-range 64-bit desktops that will be able to handle new applications and peripherals over that span - while still being able to run our trusty old POS software.
I've read some interesting complaints about it. Things like "XP Mode is simply a way for Microsoft to trick IT administrators into thinking that upgrading to Windows 7 is a better idea than moving to OS-independent cloud services." Or "It's an admission that Windows XP was just fine and didn't need to be replaced."
Nothing could be further from the truth. Rather, it's an acknowledgment by Microsoft that, even on a new OS, old applications must work flawlessly. It also has tremendous cost-saving potential for small and medium businesses. Businesses much like the one where I work.
At my day job, we (like nearly all of our customers) run point of sale software that has a Windows-only client. Windows XP has run just fine, but we're now getting to the point where it will be time for some hardware upgrades. We only change hardware once every five or six years, so I'd like to install mid-range 64-bit desktops that will be able to handle new applications and peripherals over that span - while still being able to run our trusty old POS software.
To see if Windows 7 was up to the task, I rolled out an Ultimate x64 desktop this week. Initially, our software failed to run. Once I installed and configured Virtual XP,however, our POS ran seamlessly alongside other applications without so much as a hiccup.
Despite my success, I'm still willing to listen to suggestions. Find me a web-based point of sale system that is designed to handle Canadian tax tables and payroll and can import all seven years of customer, inventory, and labor data that we have packed into a Pervasive SQL database and I'll convince my employers to switch - with one little caveat.
I'll do it as long as you can pull off this switch for less than $1600, because that's about what we'll need to pay to license Windows 7 Pro on all our machines.
That's the budget. For $1,600, all you have to do is supply the labor required to migrate our eight desktops to whichever OS is a better choice and then get us transitioned to new point of sale software that will "free us from Windows." If you can do that as painlessly as I can upgrade our systems to Windows 7 and XP Mode - and for the same amount of money - I'll hire you tomorrow.
If not, maybe it's time to admit that XP Mode isn't such a bad idea after all. It's certainly going to save the small business where I work a lot of money and headaches, and the same will hold true for numerous others like it.
For a better look at XP Mode, check out Rafael Rivera's posts about XP Mode's inner workings and his brief demo that shows how easy it is to publish virtualized applications.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
vindication84 said 2:07PM on 5-03-2009
how'd you get it?
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chrisaroz said 11:50PM on 5-03-2009
+1
I've been trying to find it ever since people started reporting it!
(not that I need it, I just want to play)
Josh said 5:53AM on 5-04-2009
Off TechNet or MSDN. Everyone with a subscription has access.
OR wait for tomorrow (the 5th of May) for it to be released to the public.
David said 2:09PM on 5-03-2009
Although I can't remember exactly where I read it, I also recall reading some Microsoft blog that the eventual goal (not with Windows 7, however with a future release of Windows) is to use sandboxed VMs (like XP mode in Windows 7) as the primary (if not sole) means of providing compatibility of earlier versions of Windows for a new release of Windows. The decoupling of legacy libraries and compatibility layers from a new release of Windows:
1. improves compatibility of legacy applications because they are running the actual previous version of Windows in a VM instead of compatibility layers,
2. improves stability because legacy applications are running in a sandboxed VM - if an application is badly behaved, at worst the OS can shut down a VM without affecting native applications of the new version of Windows,
3. improves security because legacy applications are running in a sandboxed VM - the surface area of a new version of Windows is reduced because it does not have to expose compatibility layers that may be needed to run legacy applications but may have security implications due its design, and
4. reduces the code base of the new version of Windows because legacy libraries and compatibility layers are removed from the core, making it easier to manage.
If I recall correctly from the article, the first stage was to create VMs for each legacy version of Windows required, eg. an XP VM for running all XP legacy applications, a DOS VM for running all DOS legacy applications, etc. The next stage would be to create individual VMs for each legacy application, eg. running two legacy XP applications each have its own XP VM so that one XP VM can be shut down without affecting the other legacy XP application.
There are challenges to each of these stages such as how to communicate with hardware and interop with other applications, either legacy in the same VM, legacy in another VM or native in the new version of Windows, and creating lean VMs if each legacy application will run in its own VM, which is why it's a long term direction on how to handle compatibility of legacy applications in new versions of Windows.
Of course that was the plan at the time the article was written, however the ideas made sense to me and XP mode seems like they're headed down this road.
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Seoman said 2:34PM on 5-03-2009
A very well thought-out argument. In any case, the idea that XP Mode is a cop-out makes as much sense as calling Classic mode in early MacOS X a cop-out.
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Eric said 5:26PM on 5-03-2009
I really like the idea of supporting older applications...
Whatever the system is (Rosetta, or is that for Classic/OS X compatibility?) that allows PowerPC apps to run on Intel OS X has saved me a few hundred dollars in not having to replace Finale yet.
I use Windows XP's compatibility mode to run all the games I played as a kid on Windows 95. They simply don't run on XP alone.
KarlW said 3:31PM on 5-03-2009
"I'll do it as long as you can pull off this switch for less than $1600, because that's about what we'll need to pay to license Windows 7 Pro on all our machines."
Oh yeah? All your machines include processor virtualisation extension support? And let's not forget the extra RAM you'll need, since you're running two operating systems simultaneously.
The web POS software would be able to run on a much cheaper machine. Especially since, as a web service, you could use a free OS like Linux for the web browser.
XP mode could turn out to cause more headaches, especially when it comes to hardware for which there is no Vista driver.
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HZ said 3:36PM on 5-03-2009
why not simply a virtualized-clouded solution ?
you could still use XP and with the Cloud power you could get benefit from the "old hardware" you already own..
not to mention you would simply pay practically nothing (deppends on the systems) to get this working (besides mans-work time)
i believe that switching to Windows7 to only use XP mode more than anything on the pc, and even pay for that....it's PLAIN STUPID.
i would agree that the change it's awesome if you would use more windows7 than the "XP Mode"...but if you're going to use XPMode most of the time...then stick to XP...
i'm waiting for the W7RC tho, wanna try it myself too
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Malteserr said 4:09PM on 5-03-2009
Who said they'll use XP most of the time? It's probably just going to be for that one incompatible program. Have you forgotten all the other benefits of running Windows 7?
HZ said 4:28PM on 5-03-2009
Considering they're using POS software, there's a chance of 90% that they'll use that particular software all the time.
besides, windows fanboy, it's an hypothetical case scenario. i'm not saying W7 it's bad or something like that, i'm saying that if you are going to mostly use XP...then stick to XP or use a better virtualized enviorement, where you don't need to get exagerated hardware upgrades for stuff that could be easily be handled by old hardware.
to respond to the "benefit" of w7...in this particular sceneario...they would use those "improvements" at...how much ? 5% ? they do NOT need what windows7 has to offer, they need XP Mode to run one particular program which is the MOST important of all them.... they wont have any particular benefit besides a new operating system and having new hardware...which actually translates to way more money down the road for what ? nothing you didn't already had.
I agree 100% with Gilbert Palau. (and no, i'm not a macfanboy, i never had a mac)
Gilbert Palau said 4:08PM on 5-03-2009
I understand you are in a limited budget of $1600... And that wouldnt give you much space to play with in suggesting a new os and platform. Your deployment info is also lacking a couple of items to make you a good suggestion, like how many users access this POS and how many computers you have as POS. So I will provide you a review of a project I handled and how it has impacted my customers now a year later after deployment.
I have a customer, who ran the Quickbook POS on some aging computer systems under Windows XP. They wanted something in the lines you are describing, they had give or take the same amount you say you have as a budget, $1600 to spend on it.
The solution I presented to them, costed a little bit more than what they had on budget, but the catch was that they would have to spend less than $500/yr on the maintenance budget.
The project included purchasing a license of XSilva's Lightspeed for Mac, and substituing the aging hardware (just the CPU), for Mac Mini's.
I was able to transfer all their databases to XSilva's format, and I had them up and running over a weekend.
A year from now, they only have invested in a memory kit for the mac mini's. They were so happy with the results, they decided to upgrade to other features they wanted to add to the solution.
Sure the main investment was around $3000.00 but the return investment was zero maintenance system, with no viruses to deal with, super easy to use and manage and other features that actually increased the amount of sales they would usually have.
If you want I can discuss the plan more in depth, and I'll help you deploy it... Just email me.
I did research another Web Based POS solution, but frankly investing in Lightspeed which gives you a web-based solution from the get go, is much better.
The product that best caught my eye for a web based solution was:
http://www.phppointofsale.com/
As for the idea HZ suggested, there is another product called GroundOS which is an opensource cloud environment, which you could adapt for your customer to carry this out. The benefit is that it won't cost you a penny, the counter benefit is that you will need to customize it to your needs.
I would study the Mac Mini + Lightspeed solution closely though.
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Gilbert Palau said 4:09PM on 5-03-2009
I forgot to include the Xsilva website: http://www.xsilva.com/features.php
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Gilbert Palau said 4:14PM on 5-03-2009
Another thing I forgot (sorry it's sunday and my main memory is shutdown...), is like another user mentioned, in order to use the virtualization option properly, you will need a virtualization enhanced CPU, that is new hardware right there. Also take into consideration having to buy antivirus license for all computers, even if you are not on a network facing the internet, its windows, it would be stupid not to protect it. Considering all that, you are going to be spending the same amount of money it would cost you to buy a macmini, that includes the OS and all you need is the POS software. with luck you can get it all for $2K $400 more than your current budget is.
The properway to sell this to your customer, is not showing him how much its going to cost him now, but showing him how much he is going to save from here to 6 years down. With mac's you can extend your cycle another 4yrs.
Another solution is using a POS that runs on Linux, but you are going to run into other issues + training, that will not make it a cost effective solution.
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HZ said 4:34PM on 5-03-2009
Forgot to add, that the power something like openMosix on Linux could give to the business with a Cluster instead of separated PCs using windows...it's a lot higher!, plus costs no money at all.
Sure, you have to spend some time working with it to polish it... but hey, it's completely free and works impressively great!
IN_THIS_PARTICULAR_CASE_SCENARIO I would really evaluate both options -Mac and Linux solutions- instead of "XPMode".
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ToeCutter said 11:18PM on 5-03-2009
So, why again do you feel the need to run Windows 7 x64?
You go on explaining how great VPC WinXP mode is, and how it solves a big problem for you, but I wonder if your problem isn't your own making?
Sounds like another admin that wants the latest and greatest, but isn't sure why.
What's the ROI for the new hardware and the Win 7 upgrade licenses?
(You really should be answering this question first.)
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chrisaroz said 11:49PM on 5-03-2009
HAHAHA, "..admin that wants the latest and greatest."
If his systems are 6 years old I think it's time for an upgrade.
HZ said 11:54PM on 5-03-2009
"If his systems are 6 years old I think it's time for an upgrade."
if his systems are 6 years old and still do the work just fine, why an upgrade ? why spend thousands in new hardware / software when you can simply use the old one and runs Perfect on 6 years old hardware ?
as a gamer, i do occasional upgrades once a year or so, but that's because i have to keep up with the games industry that needs better PCs each year or even each semester...
but to use a peace of a software like office...why the upgrade ? you do not, i repeat, DO NOT need a hardware upgrade when you can run it just fine in your 3 years old computer.
;) :)
rcarm said 8:23AM on 5-04-2009
And mid-range isn't really the greatest
sfdsdsfdsf said 5:16AM on 5-04-2009
I don't think any serious admin would ever consider moving to any cloud service...
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Marcool said 8:53AM on 5-04-2009
So will he have to worry about xp viruses/insecurities in the compatible mode or will microsoft update win7 and all the vulnerabilities in the xp vm mode?
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