Download Squad

I downloaded it. I installed it. Didn't work. Promptly uninstalled it. Yet another dissappointment....

Reply

So what? All web-designers will make site for IE. Because almost half of users use it

Reply

I am a web designer and I get sick of designing sites to work in all browsers. Earlier today I designed a site in Firefox, and when I opened it in IE the content didn't show properly. It took me at least 2 hours to fix this issue and I still have a few minor things that need fixed. Why can't all the browsers read content the same to get rid of these frustrating browser friendly issues. (IE is horrible it should be made a lot more like Firefox or elimenated all together)

Reply

All of us developer types generally use Firefox anyway. I have no need for IE. Microsoft has proven that they do not care nor have the marbles to create a stable browser. Let it die, man! With browsers like Firefox and Opera, not to mention Flock and other up-and-comers, IE is useless to me.

Reply

Paul's rant sounds like the poor countries whining in the UN that the superpowers don't play fair.

I look at things from the opposite angle. Since IE is the market leader, with 80+%, IE is THE standard.

W3C is the UN of the Web, instead of being a G-8.

Reply

Um... Notice that Paul Thurrot wrote that in 2005 about IE Beta 1. We're on Beta 3 now, which should have a lot better standards support now. My understanding is that IE 7 will improve standards support significantly (though probably not to the level of Firefox or Opera). The standards support chart appears more up to date, however. And yes, it does suck that they won't be going for Acid2 compliance, but Firefox won't be getting there until 2.0 or 3.0 either, as I understand it.

Not an MS fanboy, but I hate bad reporting.

Reply

Ervin,

You are ass backwards, W3C is the published standard that Microsoft can't render properly. MS does not own the internet, nor are they bigger then the internet, nor do they really understand it. It is in their own best interest to get with it. The IE development team is simply incompetent. I mean, what does the 'peek-a-boo' bug do for IE? What competitive advantage does it give MS? None, they have simply been incapable of fixing it for years. Firefox continues to chip away at IE's market share because the average user is slowly learning the IE sucks. IE's poor performance gives people one more reason to avoid MS products, where is the competitive advantage in that?

IE is not the internet, it does not control the internet, it only slows it down. It is only a matter of time before this changes, either because people decide to toss IE in the bin, or MS fixes it. I used to love IE. In its day, IE4 rocked. But that was a while ago and MS seemed to give up after that, hopefully the final version of IE7 will be better, but that will still leave web developers to deal with the legacy of IE6 for at least a few more years.

Designing for IE6 is like trying to drive forward while only being able to see behind you, so you can't see any problems until after you have crashed. Eventually, after many bloody and costly crashes, you figure out where the road is.

Reply

james - you might be right, but it doesn't really matter. If 80+% of the people coming to your site are using IE, you need to design for it. The average user doesn't know what web standards are and they really don't care. They will come to your site, find it doesn't work and go somewhere else. They are going to assume the problem is with your site since as far as they can tell "other sites work fine."

Reply

james,

I perfectly understand web designers who are upset by Microsoft's policy of designing their own standards. But I remember a time when Netscape used to do the same.

Microsoft does not own the Web is the same as saying W3C does not own the market. While I accept that having a standard is important, a standard dictated by the market is far more valuable than anything a "standards body" designs. For example, TCP/IP just works, and it does so beautifully, although nobody bothered to design it according to the OSI standard/model.

It is a fact of life that companies respect standards only in a very fragmented market, while monopolies like to impose their own proprietary systems (see iTunes). Complaining about it does not change a thing. Either accept the fact, or design your pages according to W3C standards, even if they break under IE. When enough people will do the latter, IE will change. Until then, I see very little incentive for MS to invest in this (except for the rising of Firefox, which will probably stop after IE 7 and Vista).

By the way, in this "dispute", I am on the web designers side. But just complaining about it is futile. Do something!

Reply

Excelent point, Peter. When I encounter a "This site requires Firefox" message, I just move on. I don't switch to Firefox, although I have it installed. Same goes for sites that break in Firefox.

From my point of view, the problem is that all the web design books are written based on W3C standards, while the real client-side Web is based on MS standards. I don't understand why the Gecko engine was not built according to the standards of the dominant browser, so they can reach market dominance first and THEN push the W3C standards. How do you think IE defeated Netscape Navigator, james?

I agree with those who say that IE is a dinosaur hindering the development of a better Web, but the way alternative browsers attack the problem is simply stupid.

Reply

Ervin wrote: "I agree with those who say that IE is a dinosaur hindering the development of a better Web, but the way alternative browsers attack the problem is simply stupid."

I'm not exactly clear how other browsers are attacking the problem other than by sticking to standards. How is that bad?

Reply

I have a problem with defining the Standard. For me, the Standard is the market. And the market votes for IE. That is exactly why MS can afford to disregard the W3C "standards".

The Web has already reached a level of sophistication that is beyond the needs of regular Joes. They don't care about extensions etc.; all they want client-side is basic browsing, maybe with some AJAX or DHTML. They don't care how the source is written, as long as it works. They don't care about Web 2.0 and good web design techniques. They want a good enough experience. They browse the Web for the information, not for the visual effects. It's like with wireless phones: most people don't care for extra features, beyond the expected basic functions.

The main thing people really care about right now (the reason why Firefox has gained on IE, and also the reason why this gain will reverse) is security. But as soon as IE7 comes out, I expect the number of switchers to decrease and FF to lose market share, because IE7 is another MS product based on feedback from regular Joes.

How would I have attacked IE? First of all, by writing a Gecko engine perfectly compatible with the IE one, but much safer. Then, I would have written a visually more attractive GUI on top of it, but very similar to IE. Only after that would I have cared about extending the browser, very carefully. And only after conquering the market would I have pressed for better standards, namely W3C's.

Because regular Joes don't care about standards, but about getting things done. And they won't change their browser just because the nerds say it's broken. The main reason they switch, right now, is security. They don't want another learning curve, they don't want broken pages, slow browsing, new GUI. They don't want headaches. For many of them, IE is THE browser, and they don't want to learn something new (one of the main reasons they don't switch to Linux or OS X). And, for them, if a page breaks in IE then the page is broken, not the browser. If a page breaks in FF, but not in IE, then FF is broken. In real life, pragmatically speaking, IE is THE standard.

Reply

Ervin,
You are obviously totally clueless about why IE _is_ broken.
The differences MS have made from the web standards are totally misguided, their mark-up is buggy and illogical.
Things just don't work the way they should. Microsoft don't even follow their own changes version to version; why? because it's _not_ a standard, not even inside the company.
People use web standards because it's an agreed idea on the way things should work.
Would you believe 1+1=3 just because Microsoft programmed Windows calculator to tell you so?

Just because the masses are ignorant doesn't mean ignorant decision should to be made regarding them.

Reply

Well, the only people affected by this are the web designers themselves, like me. MS would make it easier for us to do our work if they could finally adhere to the standards. I'm sure there isn't a single web designer out there who isn't pissed off about this issue.

We should do something about it and put some pressure on MS. The company isn't purposedly disregarding the standards, they are just NOT fixing the problems because it costs money and they think "hey, why should we, we control the market". Companies get very desperate when it comes to bad publicity. And if the average joe is pissed at MS, they WILL do something about it, even if it means finally complying to the rules.

Reply

The problem is that 50%+ of the IE user thinks that IE is the Internet and that`s it. They don't bother, they don't know how to install softwares, they want to check lotto numbers, weather and they are off the web.

Reply

Well then, What is the best Browser besides IE
to use to achieve all url correctly.

Reply

I have a web designer and programmer and have been for almost 8 years. FireFox only complicates this world for us... IE is still the most popular browser in the world and will be for some time. Look how long IE5-current has lasted without any big upgrades. IE7 puts IE in a whole new class with some features that best those in FireFox.

If you are a real DESIGNER or PROGRAMMER you know that you design for IE and then make it work in FireFox. Anytime you make something that the general public will use you make it work with what more than 80% of the people us... then you worry about those other 20%... you are just dumb and wasting you time if you are designing sites to work in FireFox first.

IE has implemented features that make WEB BASED APPLICATION design MUCH EASIER... try to render a gradient in FireFox using one line of code. You can't... just because Microsoft has added ways for you to do those kinds of things easily by ignoring some of those standards doesn't make then a rouge in the industry who just want to ignore standards... fact of the matter is that they ARE above the internet and if they provide better tools for designers to develop websites and applications then more power to them... maybe these STANDARDS groups should get their act together and come up with some other these kinds of features so Microsoft doesn't have to stray from the standards to give developers access to these kinds of features.

And lets face it... only NERDS install FireFox... If you are nerdy enough to CARE AT ALL about your browsers standard support then you are in a class all by yourself... normal people probably don't even know what FireFox is. Like it or not... thats the truth.

Reply

I'm with Jason... been a developer for way too long and frankly, I'm sick of internet nerds and geeks (I call them Firefox biggots) whining about Firefox and IE sucks.

I mostly develop internal applications and ALL of my clients use IE. NONE of them even CARE about Firefox or other "alternative" browsers unless we are making something outward facing (and then, they really don't care, it's always a "nice to have" requirement).

Now, I'm not saying IE is perfect, but I'd say that Firefox = beta and IE = VHS. Sure beta was technologically superior, but it didn't win the format war. VHS did. Or are all you Firefox biggots too young to remember beta? Have you even held a beta tape?

Reply